NOTES OF MEETING WITH WANG KIU 1986-8-10
Note: Wang Kiu is the Mandarin spelling for Wong Kiu. So when reading this text, mentally pronounce Wang as Wong!
Master Wang Kiu was a private student of Grandmaster Ip Man. He joined soon after Wong Shun Leung joined but he knew Ip Man before that time. Wang Kiu was from a family of Preying Mantis and Hung style practitioners. His brother Wong Si Wing was also a close student of Ip Man. Wang Kiu moved from Hong Kong to Holland in the early 70’s and has pread his art there and also in Germany.
Ray’s teacher Dr. G.K. Khoe was a private student of Master Wang Kiu. He studied privately in Wang Kiu’s kitchen for many years. He said the practice often resulted in him being thrown around everywhere. He said Wang Kiu was very fast and powerful and fighting him was like fighting an Octopus with eight arms. In the 70’s TaeKwonDo was very popular in Holland so naturally the wing Chun people fought against TaeKwondo a lot. In Hong Kong it was the Choy Lee Fut style that was the dominant art so there Wing Chun fought against Choy Lee Fut, almost on a weekly basis.
In 1982 and later in 1986 Wang Kiu corresponded with Ray and said that something should be done to try to elevate the art of Wing Chun again like in the 1950’s. Wang Kiu provided Ray with a lot of information which subsequently resulted in the publishing of an international newsletter called “Wing Chun Viewpoint.”
Below are just a few of the kinds of things that Wang Kiu talked about. A more complete version of all this is to come maybe in eBook format with accompanying videos since it is too much for Website articles.
The Challenge Matches of Wing Chun
Wang Kiu and Wong Sung Leung used to write a news paper column from 1955 to 1960, Entitled "40 Bridges of Wing Chun." Wang Kiu's pen name was Siu Lung Wong (Little Dragon King), modified by the paper from Sui Lung Wong (Water Dragon King), from the fact that
he was a great soup drinker. Both he and Wong Shun Leung were very literary in Chinese: they composed verses with implicit challenges to other styles of martial arts. Weekly challenge matches were held against any kind of Kung Fu Master.
They and a few others, including William Cheung, have fought many challenge matches. Wang Kiu himself had fought 14 successful matches. Wong Shun Leung fought the most and rarely lost. Even when he won, he did not always come out unscathed.
One time Wong Ku invited a "Lightning Hand" specialist to a tea party to challenge him to a friendly match. This specialist declined the public challenge, but requested a private "learning session" to learn about Wing Chun. Wong convinced him to the effectiveness of Wing Chun with a few combination hits to his body. This specialist later confessed that he was glad to have declined the public challenge.
Most matches were won with simple combination punches to the body. Dangerous strikes to the neck, head, and groin were never used. Eventually they had antagonized over 70 of the top martial art teachers in Hong Kong. The top teachers of various styles held a meeting the conclusion of which was threat to kill the two Wongs. When Ip Man heard of this, he quickly intervened and put a stop to all challenge matches.
One time Wang Ku invited a "Lightning Hand" specialist to a tea party to challenge him to a friendly match. This specialist declined the public challenge, but requested a private "learning session" to learn about Wing Chun. Wang convinced him to the effectiveness of Wing Chun with a few combination hits to his body. This specialist later confessed that he was glad to have declined the public challenge.
The History of Wing Chun
Wang Kiu does not like to talk about history of Wing Chun, because there isn't any: The so-called history was created by one man called Li Man. Yip's senior students agreed to the "history" because the legendary (could be fictitious) characters like Ng Mui and Gee Sin from various Chinese novels, would help to publicize Wing Chun. Wong said he does not know of any Wing Chun characters before Yip Man. Later however other students of Ip Man their own version of Wing Chun history which in many ways appears ridiculous. "A lie told a hundred times the same way would become truth, but a lie with various versions would remain a lie."
TEACHING AND PHILOSOPHY YIP MAN
Ip Man was like a “preserved duck” – better known and admired when dead than when he was alive. Such was the case for many great historical characters in every kind of art!
After Ip Man’s death, his name became a commercial asset, but when he was alive he commended little respect. He was very mild mannered and always avoided confrontations and arguments with students. If the student asked if something was good, then Ip Man would just reply, yes, very good. He would sometimes deviate from the Wing Chun principles just to please make the students happy. To make a living and survive, he had to often make sure his students were happy.
Life was very difficult in Hong Kong at the time. This accounts for the inconsistencies in the teachings of Ip Man’s many students. With Ip Man’s illness and subsequent drug addiction resulting from that, his teachings became more inconsistent and so in his teachings got worse and worse. With his illness he no longer had the passion for teaching. Originally he had no intention to teach and Wing Chun would have been just another lost Chinese art. Many Kung Fu styles have died out this way.
With the unfortunate drug addiction and the inconsistency in his teaching, many of Ip Man’s students and friends avoided social contact with him. Ip Man was completely ignorant of the English language; the story of his English education is just a fabrication.
Wang Kiu’s Teaching
Wang Ku himself would teach only the earlier version of Wing Chun taught by Ip Man. Wang would verify to himself that all his teaching is based on Wing Chun principles. He would not add new moves to the original set (for example, the Gan sau has now bee now added by most people in the Siu Nim Tao form because it was more effective than the Jum sau in a few combat fights. The Gan sau is already present in other forms so there is no need to add it to Sil Nim Tau. However, he thinks Ip's slating upward Tan sau that he taught later on in his life, is wrong; it should be horizontal. He also thinks that the Jum sau (sinking hand) should have a bigger movement to provide better defence. (Wong Sung Leung found out the hard way.) These are the only two deviations of his.
Wang Kiu did not teach Wing Chun in Hong kong because he did not want to (and did not need to – he was wealthy) compete with Ip Man for business. Even when he moved to Holland, he was not a professional Wing Chun teacher. He only taught a few students privately but each student received hands on training unlike many teachers who do not touch their students. He believed Wing Chun should be one to one hands on art. Wang Kiu believes that for the sake of propagating the art, a teacher’s pupils should eventually be better that the teacher or else the art will be lost if each teacher only teaches less than 100% of his art. He believes Dr. G.K. Khoe’s art is now better than his own.
To Wang Kiu, Wing Chun is an art form bestowing satisfaction to the practitioner. Among martial arts, he said Wing Chun is a Jewel of the martial arts. In real fighting, Guns are of course more effective. And in hand to hand combat, Western boxing is more effective than most Kung Fu styles.
There are 108 movements in the first , second and third set. There are 108 movements and 10 sections in the early Ip Man version of the Wooden Dummy form. Later Ip Man re-organized the form into eight sections and 116 movements. An early version of the Butterfly knife and pole form that Wang Kiu learned consisted together in a total of 108 movements as well.
Wang Kiu said that you have to use zero power and force in the sticking hands, or else you will be too slow. After you can use more force.
Wing Chun cannot make you a super hero. Wew all are limited. You cannot fight a grizzly bear. Maybe some people are like Grizzly bears. But Wing Chun will allow you to maximize your capabilities within your own body limits even if parts of your body do not work. Wing Chun will increase your chances.
Wong Shun Leung and Wang Kiu gave a seminar in Germany. The fee was $3,000 plus $200 per student.
Ip Man said that Wang Kiu had a very good Fan sau which means that he had very good continuous non-stop combinations.
When asked about the level vs elevated Tan sau (Palm up hand), Wang Kiu said all the early students learned the level hand. Later Ip Man taught the elevated Tan sau.
He said that some people worry if it is level, the you will get hit. He said if it is elevated you still get hit and if elevated even more you get hit worse. He said Ip Man made it very clear when he taught, that the Tan sau is level. He illustrated this with a story that if your mother gives you some money, then if you hold your palm up hand at a high angle then the money will fall out of your hand. The Tan sau or palm up hand is like an “asking for money” hand. I you hold the Tan sau at a downward angle then the money will also fall out of your hand.
Wang Kiu said he does not believe in the Chi concept as some kind of magical force that can be used for combat. He said hey proved this time and time again by fighting various Kung Fu Master who said they have Chi power.
There are two kinds of chi sau (not the same as the word Chi like in Chi power!) or sticking hands: the long force chi sau and the short force chi sau. In the short force chi sau, you roll very fast, there is not much sticking. It is good for quick reactions. The long force chi sau is performed more slowly and is for developing your feeling and sensitivity to force aand position changes. Wong Shun Leung’s people learned pushing and pulling in their chi sau right away because they said you cannot apply any combinations unless you know how to control the force. In the short force chi sau, if the opponent disengages, you have to immediately hit or else you will get hit instead. The long force chi sau is good for the internal feeling. The short force chi sau is good for alertness. Wong Shun Leung was very good with his short force chi sau. He was very adept at changing quickly in the middle of movements to completely different surprising movement combinations.
f the opponent rolls very quickly then just go for a ride and let the opponent tire himself out. This strategy is also used in western boxing.
In the old days when wing Chun was starting in Hong Kong, you either belonged to a triad , the underground or Mafia, or you fought against them. William Cheung and his brother were a service to Ip Man because his father was a chief inspector with the Hong Kong Police. This kept them away from having to mess with the triads.
Wang Kiu said that Lok Yiu, the second student of Ip Man was very very soft but had a very hard Jum sau or Sinking hand. He said his Sinking hand would shock you to the bone and was capable of breaking the kicking limbs of some people. He said you could see Lok Yiu’s hand coming but you couldn’t stop it. He was very good.
Wang Kiu trained 7 days a week. They trained twice a day and ate, slept and dreamt Wing Chun. They had much discussion about Wing Chun. He said Ip Man explained very little in those days. He was easy to manipulate and didn’t bother with any arguments. If he like you, he taught you a lot. If he felt you could not absorb the knowledge, he taught you very little.
Wang Kiu himself taught some of this kind of way. If you felt that Wing Chun was like some sort of Karate, then he taught you like it was some kind of Karate. If you thought Wing Chun was like Tai Chi then he taught you like some kind of Tai Chi. He did not argue with stubborn students.
Wang Kiu said that if you understand the Wing Chun theory then there should be no arguments about what is right or wrong..Wang Kiu said he likes to keep the original teachings from the early days which he said worked very well and could be verified from the Wing Chun principles. He said the teachings got modified later. Ip Man would adopt suggestions from his students later on. Wang Kiu sai that Ip Man asked him about the Preying Mantis Phoenix eye fist so he taught Ip Man this kind of fist. (When I met Patrick Chow, a private student of Ip Man, he said he got taught the Phoenix eye fist and against one of my fast hits managed to hit some acupuncture point on my hand which number my hand and arm for a few minutes.)
The Wing Chun third form or Bil Jee does not mean shooting fingers or thrusting fingers. It just means pointing to the target. Through wrong interpretation some people have even given it the meaning of deadly fingers or death touch or Dim Mak.
The knife set is very good for footwork because there is very little footwork in the rest of the system. The knife actions just show some ways to cut. There are m,any more ways contained in the southern Kung Fu styles.
Against a strong round house kick, you cannot Gan at an angle of 45 degrees because it will not be strong enough. He said you must Gan at a 90 degree angle to the force. Two of Wong Shun Leung’s students went to Japan and fought against the Karate people. Both students got their arms broken by performing the Gan sau incorrectly.
Wang Kiu said that Wong Shun Leung always performed his Jum sau too high and that’s why the punch from the Bak Mei master slipped in and hurt Wong Shun Leung. This is why he changed the form to usinga Gan sau instead. He said the proper Jum sau should be done by dropping the whole forearm below the level.
Wang Kiu said there has never been a martial art in all of Chinese history with this much depth of theory. He said maybe in the future something better can be created but none has been created yet. On the other hand, Wang Kiu said there are so many changes happening in Wing Chun that deviate from the Wing Chun ideas that some day wig Chun might turn into some kind of ballet dance instead of a martial art.
Wang Kiu said that Wing Chun is like Chinese poetry, every character in a Chinese poem is selected to get the maximum ampunt of meaning out of it. Wing Chun is always like this, the movements are not many but the variations and combinations are infinite in number.
Wang Kiu mentioned in reference to Wong Shun Leung’s students getting their arms broken , that Lok Yui had the strength in his arms to break your legs.
Tsui Shan Ting was Ip Man’s servant. He said Ip Manprasied him for his understanding of the forms.
The Hung style also has a lady in their histroy by the name of Wing Chun but this is a different lady and the Chinese characters for their names are different.
Wang Kiu said don’t hesitate in a fight or you will lose. Also dont be greedy in a fight or you will also lose.
Wang Kiu said that getting hit in Wing Chun is lke a dream. If you close up, you get hit and if you open up you also get hit. No matter what you do, you will get hit.
Wang Kiu said that one day he was in a restaurant with Grandmaster Ip Man having tea and talking about Wing Chun. Ip Man said “Would you like to learn the wooden dummy?” Wang Kiu answered “Do you think I am ready for that?” Ip Man said yes. At that time the club still had no wooden dummy so Ip Man started to teach him the two people version of the wooden dummy in the restaurant. This version was called the “Live Dummy.” Later when the Cheung brothers had the first wooden dummy built, Ip Man no longer taught this way so people didn’t know what he “Live Dummy” referred to and thought the live dummy was the indoor suspended dummy while the other dummy referred to the traditional dummy which was a post planted into the ground.
Wang Kiu said each section of the dummy was just a guideline and that each section of the dummy could have many variations and applications. In section nine of the 108 version of the wooden dummy, Wang Kiu trained all kinds of kicks including he round kick. He said this kick was not popular because it hurt the shin so most student preferred the kick through the heart technique instead and so Ip Man changed the kicking there.
Question and Answer
Can you tell us about the wooden dummy neck pulling hand?
The neck pulling hand is actually a nerve hit to the back of the opponent’s neck to make him pass out. You use it when your hand is over extended or he ducks your punch.
What is the idea of the Wing Chun Pak sau or Slapping hand?
The Pak sau is used to get into the defensive Wing Chun hands. If you cannot press an opponent’s hand in, then just slap in. If it is too strong, then circle your hand around the bottom of his hand and hit his neck. The circling is done as his hand rebounds from the slap. If there are no defensive Wing Chun hands, then go straight in with the chain punches.
Why do you circle the foot in the third Wing Chun form?
The circling foot movement is actually a kicking movement to be applied as the opponent steps in. These movements can also be used as foot sweeps.
What do you think about the Karate style blocks?
The other styles have a good downward block, but none of these movements have a forward force towards the opponent. They are not aggressive movements. In Wing Chun, every movement is a forward attacking force to the opponent. We do not use sideways forces.
How can you train the Wing Chun kicking techniques?
Wing Chun also has a three pole kicking dummy. The poles form the corners of an equilateral triangle.
Why is Chi Sau or Sticking Hands important?
The reason you practice the sticking hands is that once you meet the opponent’s attack, then chi sau tells you what to do next. Once you connect with the opponent, you have no time to think because in the close range the hands are too fast. There can be no thinking. Everything is split second reactions from muscle memory that comes from thousands of drills.
How can a smaller 100 pound person beat a large, strong opponent who knows the same thing?
There are always limits to any martial art. You cannot block a motorcycle with a Bong sau or Wing hand. A weaker person cannot match a stronger person with equal skills.
Did you have any special ways to drill the one inch punch?
We used to have a one pound coffee can filled with sand. We wrapped something around it and put the can on a long narrow table. One person would stand on one end and the other at the other end. Ten we would punch the can back and forth between us, using the short range punching techniques.
Do you have any advice on using the Wing Chun wall mounted sand bag?
When you hit the sand bag, hit it comfortably. Don’t overly exert force on it or else you will injure yourself. Also you will end up being too tense and not develop your maximum power potential.
What kind of training do you suggest for realistic fighting?
For realistic fighting you have to practice a lot of chain punching and charging in. The Bong Kiu is very effective for jamming kicks. One of my students trained charging in for seven years. This is the type of training required against the top level TaeKwonDo people. At the slightest twitch you have to be in. The slightest hesitation and you will get kicked. We have had a lot of experience with TaeKwonDo in Holland and did very well against them. Some of these TaeKwonDo people were very good even against Thai boxers.
Can you tell us the story of the famous Wong Shun Leung fight where he got hit by the Bak Mei master?
In one encounter we went to see a famous Dragon style and Bak Mei Master. The Master said “I am going to teach you a lesson.” He looked the four of us over and picked the smallest of us to fight. The smallest happened to be Wong Shun Leung. I flipped a coin to see who would attack first. The Bak Mei Master won the toss. Wong Shun Leung took on the neutral Wing Chun pose. The attacker shifted right and left and then suddenly exploded with a low punching attack. Wong Shun Leung used the Jum sau or sinking hand from the first Wing Chun form but the attack still slipped in and he was hurt. As in many styles the Master took his hands back to start a second attack. In Wing Chun we have a saying that if a force goes away, we follow it in. “The saying is “Receive what comes, Follow what goes and Thrust forward when the hands are freed.” Wong Shun Leung did just that and hit the Master several times in his head. The Master was bleeding from the mouth.
Next I asked Wong Shun Leung if he was ready for a second round? He said OK. In this round Wong Shun Leung immediately rushed in with the chain punching technique. The Master was hurt again.
I noticed the Bak Mei master had bluish marks on his hands which comes from excessive iron palm training. I feared if they continued to fight then someone wold be seriously hurt. I said to Wong Shun Leung you better stop and shake hands. We told the Bak Mei Master that we had no ill will against him and only wanted to learn the weaknesses of our art. I said “we came not being enemies and we should not leave being enemies.” We then went into a tea house to discuss the match.
Later Wong Shun Leung talked to Ip Man about the match and told him what happened. Ip Man told Wong Shun Leung that he should have used the Gan sau and after that ong Shun Lung decided to change the Jum sau section of the first form to a Gan sau. Later again he decided to put in both the Jum sau and also the Gan sau. each has it’s function.
Note:
As a teacher Wang Kiu did not “mince words”, he was very direct and to the point. He could touch you and right away judge your skill level. If he felt you were not “Up to Par” he would tell you straight “Everyone in Europe is better than you!” If you asked him about Ip Man, he would say “Are you here to learn about Wing Chun or to learn about my personal history?” He was a very traditional teacher. If you decided to go and check out another martial arts school and he found out about it, then he would immediately kick you out of his school as having no faith in his system.
